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January 7, 2007

12

Something to think about…

by Aaron

Here is an interesting quote:

Where there is forgiveness of these [acts of rebellion and sin], there is no longer any offering for sin.

Any thoughts?

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  1. About the atonement
  2. Missional Hearts
  3. Stuff I think about before bed…
Read more from General Rants, Spirituality, Theology
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  • http://culturalsavage.wordpress.com/ Cultural Savage

    I agree, and would take it one step further: the once-for-all sacrifice gives us forgiveness. Therefore we can approach God directly.

    But, with this in mind, I do have to wonder why we treat the Sacrifice as something that we must re-appropriate time and time again? After all, the quote does say that if we are forgiven/reconciled to God there is no longer an offering for sin to be made.

  • http://www.myspace.com/veritasenvitae John

    My stance is that it is not a reappropriation of that sacrifice but that it is a rememberence of it. perhaps as a sign of Gods understanding that Humans are forgetful and must be reminded of what has been done on their behalf lest they lose sight of that beautiful and powerful sacrifice.

  • http://www.theobservationist.com Jeremy

    CS – I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. What do you mean by re-appropriating the sacrifice time and time again?

  • http://www.myspace.com/veritasenvitae John

    On a technical level of course it abolishes the temple system of redemption that the jewish priests maintained. but on a much more beautiful level I feel it speaks to God’s will that we should have no intermediary between our hearts and his throne save Jesus himself.

  • http://culturalsavage.wordpress.com/ Cultural Savage

    Maybe re-appropriating is the wrong word.

    I have long thought/treated forgiveness as something that gets me to zero on the moral scale. So, when I sin, I must re-apply (or re-appropriate) the sacrifice to my life… not for the sake of salvation, but so that I can again have my debt erased.

    This quote seems to speak directly against that line of thinking, saying that forgiveness removes the need for any more sin offerings. Its more along the lines of what John said: it's about remembrance…

    But, before I go to far into this thought, I would like to hear what people think of this quote. Agree, disagree? Why or why not?

  • http://www.theobservationist.com Jeremy

    I would say that it means that we no longer have to offer a sin offering because Jesus took care of it with his death. This especially makes sense to me if you read the quote in context.

  • http://culturalsavage.wordpress.com/ Cultural Savage

    First of all, let me say that I think its cool that your guys know the context of the quote without the scripture reference.

    Jeremy, of course I would agree with you. One other thing that the context brings up is the reality that Jesus' sacrifice is once for all, having been offered once and never to be offered again because it is enough for every sin.

    This gets me thinking: if Jesus' once for all sacrifice is enough to give us forgiveness, why do we Christians feel the need to seek forgiveness all over again when we sin?

    I'm not saying that repentance is a bad thing, or anything like that. It's more alone the lines of the "moral zero" concept I spoke of in an earlier comment.

    I don't know if this makes sense, but I really think that American pop-theology has trulydistorted the Church's point of view in looking at forgiveness and salvation. This verse, and even more so it's context, does something to restore our vision. From this vantage point (that there is no offering for sin because Jesus has brought about forgiveness) we see that it is not up to me to stay at the "moral zero" with God by re-appropriating the blood every time I sin. Rather, no matter my struggles, battles, losses, or stupid acts of rebellion, I will stand as forgiven, redeemed, and alive before heaven and Earth when Jesus comes to claim us as His own.

  • http://www.theobservationist.com Jeremy

    You know, I've often thought of this when I make mistakes. I've heard some pulpit preachers talk about asking for forgiveness and I'm like, I thought I already did this.

    In my private prayers I have a habit of admitting error, asking for help in recoginizing mistakes, learning from them and moving on. The problem is that I have been taught to somehow feel…well, almost guilty about the mistakes.

    Not sure I'm making sense, but I understand what your driving at and I too wonder, "if Jesus’ once for all sacrifice is enough to give us forgiveness, why do we Christians feel the need to seek forgiveness all over again when we sin?"

    I don't know why this is the prevailing attitude.

  • http://culturalsavage.wordpress.com/ Cultural Savage

    The NT talks allot about looking forward to the salvation to be revealed when Christ comes back. But, I don't hear many churches talking about it.

    Instead, we treat salvation as a thing we have… like a cell phone or something. Now that we have it, we better keep it charged up and keep the signal strong. If you don't, well then obviously you are just using it poorly, or something. If salvation is something that I have now, then why do I still sin, because isn't salvation the saving from myself, my sin, and the curse?

    But, if salvation is a garenteed hope that we have, then my sin makes sense, because I am still being transformed by God, and have not yet become all that I will be. And, I can say that Jesus sacrifice has forgiven me and that I will see that forgiveness when I am gathered to my God as one of His people on that Day.

  • http://www.myspace.com/veritasenvitae John

    I will comment on what I think the main stream of this thread in a moment, but CS, you mentioned earlier that pop culture has distorted the church's point of view on redemption and forgiveness, but I also submit that the church has done plenty to propagate this distortion in and of itself, look at homosexual issues, look at the catholic church and it's cover up of priests abuses..there is much to look at inside the bride of christ before we look for sin and distortion on the outside. anyway, back to redemption. I've often noticed that grief and shame are more powerful roadblocks to any relationship, including our relationshipt to god.

  • http://culturalsavage.wordpress.com/ Cultural Savage

    John,

    I agree that there is much to look at within, but is it in the bride or the culture we have developed around her that the problem lies?

    We as the people of God have done a fantastic job of creating a Christian bubble in which we can cloister ourselves off from the culture around us and self promote our orthodox self help thinking to ourselves to boost book sales. So, what ever fills our best seller list, our shelves, and our CD players has become our substitute for Theology. Its popular thought that we assume is truth and orthodoxy.

    That is what I mean by pop-theology. I do find fault with the Bride, but only for creating such a culture and so taking her eyes off the Bride Groom.

    That leads me to your spot on observation about grief and shame. Sometimes I have to wonder if the majority these feelings aren't invoked because of the pop-theology that everyone assumes is the word of God. After all, Christ offers forgiveness because the Groom has become the once for all offering for his Bride.

  • http://www.myspace.com/veritasenvitae John

    you hit it dead on CS, we have created a bubble that has protected us from the "bad" part of culture. In that lies the problem. people have selective understanding of scriptures it seems. our calling isn't to cover up and protect ourselves from the less than pure parts of society. I will simply say this, our calling is not to protect ourselves, but to live wrecklessly and whole heartedly for the savior of us all and rely on him to restore us when we get beat up. or more simply put.. read the great commission once in a while.